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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 3:45:22 GMT
Posting my thoughts and a bit of a write up here for strength clerics.
So first my story for inspiration.
I've noticed over my time playing nwn that people say either caster cleric, or fighting cleric. I've been thinking that because of that, clerics don't really have a defined role. They are just less damaging fighters or less versatile casters. So I actually decided to search it and found the origins of clerics on wikipedia. It said that cleric had been a class since some of the earliest editions of dnd, and had been meant to be a combination of fighter and magic user. Magic user is old edition talk for caster.
So that inspired me to get to writing up a cleric warrior type build, strength based like a old edition fighter.
Here are my thoughts summarized a bit from notepad.
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 3:46:35 GMT
So first off!
Things you can think about when starting a fighting cleric
1.) Do you want to add hellball - and magic domain for ice storm - to your needs so that you may
farm testing pits/inferno with "sanct boom". This is sort of being a caster without the need for spellcasting DC.
2.) Do you want to use harm and word of faith, or do you want to abandon casting level and just get
buffs only?
3.) Do you want premonition from protection domain which requires high level cleric?
4.) Do you want improved expertise/expertise?
5.) Do you want 5 apr or are you okay with only the 4 apr considering that the 4th bab is -15?
6.) Do you want at least 39 strength to be immune to iron horn?
I also assumed one wanted concentration due to casting harms and word of faiths in melee. I don't know if concentration is exactly required but I do think it might be a good idea.
This is because of the wide varieties of fighting clerics and the feats required for them all. Whatever you choose, the truth is you need to get some wisdom AND strength if you want to be a melee strength cleric.
Now I will say this. You can sanct boom in testing pits - and probably inferno - with JUST ice storm. I just did it earlier. But let me tell you something else...
You WANT hellball. Or at least I do. It not only speeds it up, but they are asking for it grouping up near your drone, and it's kind of fun.
Once you've answered those questions, you can begin to look at necessary feats. These classes presented assume you've answered yes to all of those like me. If you haven't, you don't need to concern yourself with some of the feats presented, and may find some leeway to give you +1-2 more ab or to address other concerns such as great strengths or levels.
Now, let's assume you want to cast harm and word of faith.
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 3:48:15 GMT
One thing you might think is just go 38 1 1 right? You can do that. 38 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 paladin. 38 cleric is 6 epic bonus feats resulting in 5 bonus epic wisdoms and 1 hellball feat available. So you can start with 14 wisdom, advance nothing but strength, and end up with 19 wisdom and hellball. Could also go monk 1 for evasion, or rogue 2 for evasion and umd but -1 feat, but the advantage here is that you can go 9 or 10 ability stats to strength, and get wisdom through the epic wisdom bonus feats of the cleric, and hellball. But 37/38 cleric, paladin/rogue/monk/bard. So now what about the other ideas?
Fighter: Okay so it can logically be reasoned that the same thing one does for champion one should do with fighter for apr and epic weapon specialization. This means 4 fighter pre epic for 2 more feats, and 6 fighter epic for 2 more feats. Pre epic and epic are minus 1 due to weapon spec and epic weapon spec. These feats unlike the champion, have to be the epic combat feats rather than epic wisdoms. That means you replace the epic combat general feats with great strengths/wisdoms to fulfill your needs. So if you start at 15 like we've been doing and 14 wisdom, as pale master you need 17 for 39 strength, 18 for 40. 10 are free from level up. That means you need 7 from feats. With cleric 29 you get 2 and hellball, and general feats with fighter 10 gives you 5 more for 7 ability feats. That only gets you to 39 strength. You can sacrifice hellball or epic prowess for the other great strength.
You get more feats and leeway with more fighter only. But the part I wanted to stress was you weren't doing this for puissant. Just because you go 10 fighter doesn't mean puissant. Puissant is not only more feat costly, but will also probably not work with the divine buffs you have.
So 29 Cleric 10 Fighter 1 Rogue/Bard/Monk For reference, the build without epic prowess is below. But fighter only gives you +6 damage and 1 apr. +additional damage and dodge AC from warrior widget.
Champion: Champion is a good choice for apr, saves, and an undispellable 5 ab/damage and saves spell. 4 levels of champion pre epic gives you +1 apr, +1 bab, saves, and then 6 epic gives you 3 epic wisdoms. Then you can get 2 more epic wisdoms from 29 cleric, while getting hellball. This gives you 19 from starting 14, and then you can get the rest the standard epic warrior feats and great strengths to result in about 40 strength. So because champion gives you access to epic wisdom as a bonus feat, you can just level it and it will be straightforward. So Cleric 29 rogue/bard/monk 1 Champion 10. |
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 3:50:29 GMT
Pale Master: 14 starting wisdom, can get to 16 starting strength with 12 con, 13 int, and 13 cha. 16 -> 27 is 11 strength required 14 -> 19 is 5 wisdom required. 16 attributes in total 10 are free. If you go 26 cleric you just make it for level 9 spells if you sacrifice epic prowess and hellball. The other way is to go 20 cleric, 4 bard epic levels, and 16 palemaster to get hellball, but only level 7 spells for extended sanctuary. Furthermore, you might say you don't want expertise or improved expertise, and you might be able to fit in greater spell penetration and you might be fine with only 30 caster level while failing with harms and word of faiths on a roll of 1. Cleric | Bard | Pale Master depends on what you prioritize. So I liked 26 cleric 4 bard 10 pale master with level 9 spells and no hellball. Or 20 cleric 4 bard 16 pale master with hellball.
Purple Dragon Knight:
To make this part short and sweet - Purple dragon knight can be taken pre epic, gives you +1 apr, and gives you and your allies ab boosts. Your attack bonus can reach over the bonus cap, resulting in something near 68 AB. It is short duration and not permanent though.
But you have to go monk 1 because you need extra bonus feats from cleric instead of fighter. Because of that you can't fit the 5th purple dragon knight level in, but you can change the tumble class to monk, then reduce int/cha to 13 and ignore umd. Monk 1 gets you cleave/evasion as well. That is, if you want both improved expertise and hellball. If you don't you can go 32 cleric, and go bard or rogue and 5th purple dragon knight level for final stand. This gets rid of both improved expertise and hellball, but you can retain 14 cha/int and umd. Your choice.
Red Dragon Disciple: 4 AC, fire/paralysis immunity 8 free strength, but have to get greater spell penetration. Because of free strengths, you CAN cast word of faith and harm.
Due to the feat concerns, the benefits of RDD are basically the benefits of RDD, but without the 4 ab and 4 damage in comparison to a few of the builds presented. |
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 3:50:56 GMT
For example: Warrior with extended ts, pretty high ac in improved expertise. It can extended sanctuary throughout sendauntra, and use hellball & ice storm to farm the testing pits. As a cleric 28 with greater spell penetration, it can cast
harm and word of faith to surpass endgame spell resistance.
Cleric 28 Bard 2 RDD 10
Human
Non Lawful alignment for bard.
Starting ability scores
15 str + 5 stats -> 20 + 2 great strengths +8 rdd -> 30 + 12 spells/items = 42 strength
8 dex
12 con + 2 rdd = 14
14 int + 2 rdd = 16
14 wisd + 5 stats = 19
14 cha + 2 rdd = 16
Magic and War domain.
Magic and war both give you benefits without the need for spellcasting DC.
Magic gives you ice storm which is a spell needed for farming testing pits with no dc needed. War domain gives you war cry, aura of vitality, cats grace, and a nice short term damage boost.
The new magic domain gives you improved invisibility and shadow shield.
25+16 = 41
41+4 feats = 45
+20 enhancement = 65 ab Cleric can reach 20 enhancement with war cry and divine buffs, +10 eb weapon.
1. Cleric Power attack, divine might.
2. Cleric
3. Cleric Divine shield
4. Cleric
5. Cleric
6. Cleric Weapon focus simple weapon
7. Cleric
8. Cleric
9. Cleric Blind fight
10. Cleric
11. Cleric
12. Cleric Expertise
13. Cleric
14. Cleric
15. Cleric Improved Expertise
16. Cleric
17. Cleric
18. Cleric Extend spell
19. Cleric
20. Cleric
21. Cleric Epic weapon focus simple weapon
22. Cleric
23. Cleric Armor skin
24. Cleric Epic skill focus discipline
25. Cleric
26. Cleric Hellball
27. Cleric Epic Prowess
28. Cleric
29. Bard
30. Red Dragon Disciple Spell penetration
31. Red Dragon Disciple
32. Red Dragon Disciple
33. Red Dragon Disciple Greater spell penetration
34. Red Dragon Disciple
35. Red Dragon Disciple
36. Red Dragon Disciple Great Strength 1
37. Red Dragon Disciple
38. Red Dragon Disciple
39. Red Dragon Disciple Great Strength 2
40. Bard skill sink – 5 skills – tumble, umd, discipline, spellcraft, concentration
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 22:11:20 GMT
Cleric 29 Bard 1 Fighter 10 (Rogue 1 instead gives you sneak attack damage, and have to take fighter for max discipline at end) Human Non Lawful alignment for bard.
+1 attack per round and +5 damage over the Red dragon disciple, and +warrior widget bonus to damage and AC.
The warrior widget can give you undispellable dodge AC instead of having to rely on Undeath's Eternal Foe.
Starting ability scores 15 str + 7 stats + 5 feats = 27 -> 39 strength 8 dex 12 con 14 int 14 wisd + 3 stats + 2 feats = 19 14 cha Magic and War domain. Magic and war both give you benefits without the need for spellcasting DC. Magic gives you ice storm which is a spell needed for farming testing pits with no dc needed. War domain gives you war cry, aura of vitality, cats grace, and a nice short term damage boost. The new magic domain gives you improved invisibility and shadow shield.
26 + 14 = 40+4 = 44 +20 enhancement = 64 ab Cleric can reach 20 enhancement with war cry and divine buffs, +10 eb weapon.
1. Cleric Blind Fight, Power attack 2. Cleric 3. Cleric Divine shield 4. Cleric 5. Cleric 6. Cleric Divine might 7. Cleric 8. Cleric 9. Cleric Extend Spell 10. Cleric 11. Cleric 12. Cleric Spell Penetration 13. Cleric 14. Cleric 15. Cleric Bonus feat 16. Cleric 17. Fighter – Weapon Focus (if you want this to be exotic it can be with the bonus feat moved around) 18. Fighter Expertise, Improved Expertise 19. Fighter 20. Fighter 4 – Weapon Specialization (+1 attack per round) 21. Cleric 17, Epic Skill Focus Discipline 22. Cleric 18 23. Cleric 19 24. Cleric 20 Great Strength 1 25. Cleric 26. Cleric 27. Cleric Epic Wisdom 1, Great Strength 2 28. Cleric 29. Cleric 30. Cleric Epic Wisdom 2 , Great Strength 3 31. Fighter 32. Fighter Epic Weapon Focus 33. Fighter Great Strength 4 34. Fighter Epic Weapon Specialization 35. Fighter 36. Fighter Epic Prowess, Hellball 37. Cleric 38. Cleric 39. Cleric Armor Skin, Great Strength 5 / Epic general feat. 40. Bard skill sink – 5 skills – tumble, umd, discipline, spellcraft, concentration |
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Post by Jonales on Jun 17, 2020 22:52:13 GMT
Cleric 35 Monk 1 Purple Dragon knight 4 You can go bard/rogue for umd and PDK 5 by sacrificing both improved expertise and hellball, then making your strength 15, int 14, charisma 14. This means 32 cleric, 3 rogue/bard, 5 purple dragon knight.
Human Any non evil and any non chaotic for pdk, lawful neutral or lawful good for monk. Starting ability scores 16 str + 9 stats + 3 feats = 28 -> 40 strength 8 dex 12 con 13 int 14 wisd + 1 stats + 4 feats = 19 13 cha
With 13 int and monk, no use magic device skill.
Magic and War domain. Can also do protection for level 35 premonition. 26 + 15 = 41+3 = 44 +20 enhancement = 64 ab Cleric can reach 20 enhancement with war cry and divine buffs, +10 eb weapon. If you take the war domain you get war cry longer duration. The Purple dragon knight ability can take one OVER the attack bonus cap. This build can most likely reach 68 ab!! Boosts your allies ab as well!
1. Cleric Blind Fight, Power attack 2. Cleric 3. Cleric Divine shield 4. Cleric 5. Cleric 6. Cleric Divine might 7. Cleric 8. Cleric 9. Cleric Weapon Focus simple weapon 10. Cleric 11. Cleric Skills required for mounted combat 12. Cleric Mounted Combat 13. Cleric 14. Cleric 15. Cleric Extend Spell 16. Cleric PDK skills 17. Purple Dragon Knight 1 18. Purple Dragon Knight 2 Expertise 19. Purple Dragon Knight 3 20. Purple Dragon Knight 4 21. Cleric 17, Epic Skill Focus Discipline 22. Cleric 18 23. Cleric 19 24. Cleric 20 Epic Weapon Focus simple weapon 25. Cleric 26. Cleric 27. Cleric Epic Wisdom 1, Armor Skin 28. Cleric 29. Cleric 30. Cleric Epic Wisdom 2, Great Strength 1 31. Cleric 32. Cleric 33. Cleric Epic wisdom 3, Great Strength 2 34. Cleric 35. Cleric 36. Cleric Epic Wisdom 4, Great Strength 3 37. Cleric 38. Cleric 39. Cleric Hellball, Improved Expertise 40. Monk – Discipline / Tumble skill sink |
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ReePeR
Arakan Scribe
Posts: 95 
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Post by ReePeR on Jun 18, 2020 12:35:18 GMT
Nice write up!
I had good fun with a 35 cleric 4 fighter 1 monk, heavy Xbow with good enough strength to max out mighty; add some divine favour and max craft bolts, puts out damage equal to most archer damage builds.
Also DC wasnt terrible!
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Post by Rijnius on Jun 18, 2020 14:08:46 GMT
This is a bit off-topic (but what isn't  ).
Here's not a "strength" cleric, but a toon that makes use of the point that you can get reasonable DC and AB with zen-archery, making it indeed a true caster type / fighter type toon. The build has DC 54 on weird and can use phantasmal warrior thanks to Chrees changes. It also reaches +61/+62 AB with +10 bow with +7/+8 from cleric buffs (bless/aid/favor/prayer). This is not possible with wizard or sorcerer classes (to return to the original point of this thread).
Currently leveling this one but it has huge XP penalty, so that's a downer.
If it doesn't kill stuff instantly it can just slowly pew-pew stuff that is blind from word of faith, or use harms, or heals or whatever. It also has a nice "shades" summon thanks to domain powers.
Sno'rly - 36(20) Cleric / 1 Ranger / 3 Monk--- Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Silent Spell Zen-Archery Blind-Fight Toughness Great Fortitude Point-Blank-Shot ---- Improved Critical (Shortbow) Greater Wisdom VI-X (5) Armor Skin --- *Epic Spell Focus (Illusion) (ranger bonus feat) *Greater Wisdom I-V (5) (cleric bonus feats) --- Gnome, Evil/Death, 14 DEX, 12 CON, 38(18) WIS, 14 INT --- Craft 43, Lore 7, OL/PP 1, Tumble 40, Concentation 43, Spellcraft 43 --- |
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Post by Jonales on Jun 18, 2020 17:43:34 GMT
Cool responses Yeah clerics can go zen archery and be archers while retaining dc, I just thought it was interesting that one could be a strength cleric focusing on ice storm, words of faiths, harms. It'd be nice to hear thoughts on the idea of the melee cleric because the zen archer cleric can reach decent AC with monk+dex and retains its dc. The druid is also a choice for going melee while retaining DC, so it almost comes down to word of faith, harms, maybe multiclassing or something else for the fighting cleric. If one goes zen archer, I'd personally still like to be able to farm testing pits with sanct boom, and stonehold definitely helps in grubs. So for two at once I am looking heavily on Earth domain due to access to bombardment for a powerful spell, and stonehold for grubs and other areas like forgies and sendauntra. The other ones that give you spells for testing pits are fire, and air I think. So I like at least one of those domains.
Actually I guess one can say in comparison to the druid as a spellsword, the cleric has sanctuary (low level slot too) and can extend it. This can be useful in a variety of places such as testing pits, darkmoor dralenoff runs I suppose, lost dungeon, sendauntrahof and general sendauntra, and maybe a few more. I considered extend spell an extremely loaded feat simply because of extended sanctuary, so the cleric can farm sendauntrahof where the druid might not. Strength vs Zen archer clerics, the zen archer cleric can most likely farm grubs better than strength cleric with no dc, especially if it gets Earth domain. Other than that, I wouldn't see any other differences in farming endgame, except I guess the melee is a melee and range is a range, which might provide a different way for leveling it.
But with extend sanct and capability to farm testing pits, it's not like strength cleric doesn't have anything I suppose.
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Post by Jonales on Jun 18, 2020 18:30:42 GMT
I guess for strength clerics and strength builds I'll say these things.
Dungeon of doors and Isle of death are both pretty close quarters, and Isle of death has the doors that need to be bashed with high strength. Strength might be simply just be handy there, although I'm sure a zen archer cleric could farm those.
Strength as always provides a handy bonus to discipline and makes one immune to iron horn. But the discipline specifically is for guard room/deep forge, and I'd bet as well a zen archer could do those two places if desired.
I wouldn't want to farm troll lord with any archer build period, but it's in the realm of possibility with a strength AC build.
Also I noticed that in Sendauntrahof specifically...I don't want to MOVE. And when you are a zen archer cleric resting for the next sanct in sendauntrahof, you might have to MOVE. A strength cleric might be able to stand there and melee the mobs, instead of having to take opp attacks or move, opp attacks from obyvatels and others might not be so wise. It's just something else that I noted about strength clerics and strength builds, which is that they might be more "I don't need to move" type of play.
So maybe those things.
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Post by henrikjakobsen on Jun 25, 2020 6:41:01 GMT
how do you export the build in a nice format? Or do you write it down as you level it up?
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Post by mcbutcher on Jun 25, 2020 11:57:58 GMT
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Post by Jonales on Jun 25, 2020 19:05:25 GMT
Actually big update on the Cleric Fighter build. Although the character sheet on my paladin fighter with puissant and divine favor did not update correctly, it seems that in the combat log it does show the correct attack values. So divine buffs can merge with all fighter widget ab bonuses without conflict. What this means is a cleric fighter build CAN get puissant, but there are some other problems with it too. If you want hellball like I do for testing pits, you need to go 23 cleric instead of 27 for the extra feat while maintaining attack bonus with 39 strength and epic prowess, which can be a bonus fighter feat. So if you don't want hellball, and want your word of faith to hit say 70% of the time or whatnot, you can get 27 cleric and armor skin instead.
Here is the build I came up with. Like with the others, it depends largely if you want hellball. But this one opposed to the other fighter does not have certain to hit harms with caster level passing endgame sr. But it does have a longer +2 enhancement bonus, and +6 damage positive damage, which can open up a new strategy with war domain, or another domain entirely. It also doesn't have a pre epic bonus feat for exotic proficiency or anything else.
Cleric 23 Fighter 16 monk 1
Human
Starting ability scores
16 str + 7 stats + 4 feats = 27 -> 39 strength
8 dex
12 con
13 int
14 wisd + 3 stats + 2 feats = 19
13 cha
Magic and War domain.
26 + 14 = 40+4 = 44
+20 enhancement = 64 ab Cleric can reach 20 enhancement with war cry and divine buffs, +10 eb weapon. If you take the war domain you get war cry longer duration.
1. Cleric Blind Fight, Power attack
2. Cleric
3. Cleric Divine shield
4. Cleric
5. Cleric
6. Cleric Divine might
7. Cleric
8. Cleric
9. Cleric Extend spell
10. Cleric
11. Cleric
12. Cleric Expertise
13. Cleric
14. Cleric
15. Fighter Weapon focus 1(doesn't have to be here for simple weapon but can be a martial weapon here), weapon focus 2
16. Fighter improved expertise
17. Fighter
18. Fighter weapon spec 1, weapon spec 2
19. Cleric
20. Cleric
21. Fighter 5 epic skill focus discipline
22. Fighter 6 epic weapon focus 1
23. Fighter 7
24. Fighter 8 epic weapon focus 2, great strength 1
25. Fighter 9
26. Fighter 10 epic weapon specialization 1
27. Fighter 11 great strength 2
28. Fighter 12 epic weapon specialization 2
29. Cleric 17
30. Cleric 18 Great Strength 3
31. Cleric 19
32. Cleric 20
33. Cleric 21 Great Strength 4
34. Cleric 22
35. Cleric 23 Great Wisdom 1
36. Fighter 13 Great Wisdom 2
37. Fighter 14 Epic Prowess
38. Fighter 15
39. Fighter 16 Hellball Armor skin
40. Monk – Discipline / Tumble skill sink
Here are some other interesting domains for this build.
Good *Word of faith level 6, but remember it's not certain to pass endgame sr
Animal *Extended true seeing level 4
Healing Better healing, mass heal at level 7
Protection Protection from spells and extended lesser globe which blocks gust of wind, but it's dispellable low caster level.
Knowledge Spell mantles and mind blank
strength Extended divine power and battletide at lower levels
With war domain and puissant, you don't need to use divine favor/power to get the +5, but can instead use extended prayer, extended battletide, and extended war cry to get +20 as well for a longer duration than favor, and damage bonuses over divine power. This is essentially a longer +5 damage that is dispellable. This is because battletide doesn't stack with divine favor/power, but with puissant & war cry, you can use battletide instead. It also saves you turn undeads if you use divine favor through widget, which increases your duration as a fighter.
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Post by donojono on Jun 26, 2020 13:15:59 GMT
I would go cleric monk rogue instead and dex/wis I know that is now what you asked but you can WOF harm, extended TS because you have high AB and speed to get away. perhaps 32 6 2 or 29 9 2
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