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Post by kid on Oct 4, 2016 12:13:26 GMT
I've just had a lesser dispell strip 8 spells from me in one go, remember lesser dispell is a lvl 2 spell. Maybe I'm just being salty (entirely possible)but that doesnt seem close to balanced.
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Post by perrit on Oct 4, 2016 19:47:56 GMT
dispell is OTT on 3T has been for years, with low level dispells stripping off multiple high level buffs and considering how much casters spam its it damn annoying how OTT it is, it would be nice to see it tweaked a bit.
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Post by chreelister on Oct 4, 2016 19:51:38 GMT
No I agree with you, and it seems for some reason NPC's dispells are more powerful than yours for some reason. Unless someone totally objects, I'll look at the code to limit NPC mage's power. We could just limit the number of spells it does too, that would affect both PC and NPCs though. I could see where a lesser at most should get rid of 2 spells, regular dispell 4 spells, etc. What does everyone else think?
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Post by kid on Oct 4, 2016 20:06:42 GMT
No I agree with you, and it seems for some reason NPC's dispells are more powerful than yours for some reason. Unless someone totally objects, I'll look at the code to limit NPC mage's power. We could just limit the number of spells it does too, that would affect both PC and NPCs though. I could see where a lesser at most should get rid of 2 spells, regular dispell 4 spells, etc. What does everyone else think? I'll honestly take anything at the moment but I'll defer for now while players who play casters more chip in with how this would effect them. |
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Post by apecraze on Oct 4, 2016 20:16:27 GMT
Generally agree dispells are annoying
Not sure how dedicated by spell you could tweak this...for example pimp down lesser dispell and lesser breach and give that to the spellbook of NPC casters while leaving mord, grtr dispell and grtr breach untouched for PC? along the lines of that
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Post by apecraze on Oct 4, 2016 20:18:44 GMT
Generally agree dispells are annoying Not sure how dedicated by spell you could tweak this...for example pimp down lesser dispell and lesser breach and give that to the spellbook of NPC casters while leaving mord, grtr dispell and grtr breach untouched for PC? along the lines of that Just to clarify, dispells are annoying generally but I meant the OTT nature of them is annoying  |
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Post by bdtgazo on Oct 14, 2016 3:04:21 GMT
Similar in vein to Ape's suggestion, maybe, would be to remove the dispels from the normal casters completely, and then add in some dispel-focused casters in a few places, and/or as random spawns. Maybe even a few dispel on hit melee or archers.
In truth though, and I'm not saying I agree with it, post-Mu 3t was keen to force people to group up, and to increase the odds that players will inevitably die. Well, I guess Mu's vision was the same, but more because the server was bad ass throughout, and due to hard core pvp. Anyways, the point is, with DCs having been buffed, particularly with Wail, I would be cautious about power creep.
3t at its root is meant to be a challenging server. I worry that some of the changes are incrementally making the server easier. Its one thing to bring in balance between builds, but power creep is the doom of a server, unless new and harder areas are being added at the same or even faster a pace. Its nice to be able to farm, and get rewards, but when it becomes too easy, that will get boring fast. That's why Mu's philosophy (and mine) was to say 'piss on the player. I don't want them to be happy.' As a dev, you really can't cater to the player's whims. Players want short cuts. Players want power. Players want things to be easier. Giving them such would ruin the server. What made 3t stand out in the beginning was that it was HARD.
What happened, though, was that after Mu left, the new team deviated from this philosophy. They wanted the server to be 'family friendly.' Seriously, I'm pretty sure I remember a dev saying 'family friendly' in the forums. They also had a very strict idea about how PCs should play, and what builds were ok to use. Mu, I'm pretty sure, didn't give a damn about builds... he just made stuff hard, and you were welcome to throw any build you could come up with at it. With his departure, some of the changes the new team were making were leading to power creep.
I guess its a question of what direction we want to head in now?
As far as difficulty, there are two ends of the spectrum... an empty room with an open chest containing heaps of loot, and then there is the unkillable monster guarding a locked chest that can't be opened, and it doesn't have anything in it anyways.
Obviously neither is fun. You want something in the middle. So where do you put the slider?
I too think dispel is a pain. So is having to chain cast buffs. Just keep in mind that immunity items were removed for a reason. If you reduce the risk of death by greatly weakening dispels, you may want to increase the risk by adding something else.
Hmm, its an interesting question. Lets say you add back in immunity items so that you eliminate the chain buffing and the pain of being dispelled. For starters, there would be decay on the variance of offensive means to thwart the PCs. And builds would be changed. I guess you could, instead of adding in immunity items, remove ALL immunities, even ones from spells, and have buffs just increase saving throws, then remove all of the NPC dispels. And add in save bonus items. Then, eventually, you wouldn't have to buff, wouldn't have annoying dispels, but could still fail the saves.
Of course, everyone rolls a one sometimes. And to some folks, it happens way too often. But you could implement layers of save checks, so that the % of failing is reduced (slightly). You could then give some NPCs boosts to beating certain checks, and so forth.
Anyways, the point is, be wary of power creep.
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Post by bdtgazo on Oct 14, 2016 3:10:56 GMT
Of course, another issue is the power scaling too. Its possible that one of the larger problems is that power scales up too quickly on 3t, now. AB is maxed or close to it. AC is capped. Saves are capped. Maybe everything needs to be scaled down, so there is more room at the top.
edit: which would involve entirely too much work, and piss quite a few folks off. |
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Post by chreelister on Oct 14, 2016 16:43:00 GMT
This is the way I see Power Creep here. Is it happening? Yes it is. Is it bad? I don't think so. 3T started as an all balanced server, mainly for PVP reasons.
But in V6 if you had a level 20 wizard and I the same char, we were pretty much balanced, with play style only separating us and a few decisions on level up, because gear was pretty much low magic and balanced. Now with the rare t10 and t11 gear, some of that is insane and not balanced at all. I am not sure why 3T decided to add some of this gear, some of it is pretty ridiculous. But my point is now that the same two level 40 chars can be totally different on gear, some could solo this area while others can't, just because of good gear. Thank god, NWN is not like Diablo 3 with your char mainly being based on gear, probably 80% in D3 with NWN being around 35%. But there is a Gear Power Creep going on here, eventually you are going to get a good drop and that will make your character better and then another drop and then the char will be better, etc. I think that if I could hand pick my gear from everything on the list I could about solo anything. Please note, I have no intentions on nerfing or removing any gear from the drop tables. Also in v6 you could mule, 3T thought this was unfair to new players and outlawed it, but then you could codex gear to your friends, so IMO new people were still screwed. I think the Black Market is a fair in between but it is a power creep for low levels buying everything from the BM.
When Sendauntra was first made, I made it to be nonsoloable and it was for awhile, with only maybe 1 or 2 people being able to do it, with awesome gear helping of course. But then somebody made changes to the Barbarian. Unbelievably changes to the Barbarian, at that. Yes, they needed a boost, but now they can solo it and they wasn't nothing much I can do with Sendauntra after that to make it hard to solo for Barbs and keep it from being stupid hard for everyone else. Then the widgets came about, totally helping the Fighter class out, yes they needed help but the power creep was in full effect. Then the clone widget came about. Totally fun to use, but Power Creep had the pedal to the floor. Now 90% of my chars are a Barb or Fighter using clones. Now I don't intend to nerf or change any of this, but some classes got left in the dust, IMO. So far Spellcasters, Monks, Shifters, etc. have gotten boosts to try to catch up with Barb and Fighter, to make them even or more balanced.
So now with Dispel. In v6, Clerics ruled with Wiz and Sorcs the next best thing or better depending on how they was played. With not too many Dispellers running around and all of the buffs they had going, they was a powerhouse, so that is probably why the 3T devs gave everything dispel in the epic levels. NWN offers way to many buffs and in most cases you are stupid for not using all of them, IMO. Dispel needs to happen on occasion, but it is not balanced correctly ATM, I have had low level mages like in Vanguard strip all of my buffs and me be level 30. And to lose everything hurts a lot no matter where you are at. If a guy is constantly spamming Dispel and I am losing 0,1 to 2 or 3 buffs a Dispel (depending on which one they are using), I can be happy with that, other than the 1 poof, everything gone deal.
So Power Creep is going on, IMO, but it is not a bad deal. I know I got some chars that couldn't solo what they can without the Barb changes and Fighter widgets. Is it easier to level, yes, it needed to be IMO, player base isn't what it use to be and most chars still need a party on occasion. You are still better off in a party, but I don't believe in punishing the solo farmer. So as far as Power Creep goes, let's make harder areas and enjoy being a stronger level 40 than what we was 4 years ago and enjoy the easier time to level and make it on the server. The XP system sometimes still kills me, like getting 175xp per kill one level and then it dropping to 115xp the next level, sometimes it will go from 70xp a kill and then next level 35xp a kill. I would rather it be made lower but not drop so hard each level. Also there comes a point where you have to do this quest, like the portal quest, to get any more XP. So it has not become an easy server, IMO.
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Post by apecraze on Oct 14, 2016 17:32:11 GMT
First would just like to compliment both bdtgazo and chree for their thougts, most of which I can follow and Support and it becomes apparent they really care for how to Keep the fun alive.
When it comes to power creep I think it's hard to step back. Are Barbs a Little OP? Yes. But: I jaev meanwhile built dozens of them, be it the dedicated Spider farmer, a ranged puiss one for xtra attacks or a dual wield kukri dex based. I enjoy all of them and ist not like you can just breathe through every area. But still, very powerful. But of Course I would HATE all the time invested into them if Barbs would now get nerfed. I recognize Chree already mentioned he has no Intention to do this
The Dispel Thing I believe has more to do with the Feeling of utter Unfairness, it's not about that it cannot be handled in game. It's like rolling the damn 1 on soultrapper drown. I bloody hate it, I shout scream and swear when it happens. Does it kill me? Rarely
So if we find ways to make it a Little harder again, fine with me. Just those one-trick Ponys annoy me
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Post by bdtgazo on Oct 14, 2016 17:40:44 GMT
Sissy pants.
If barbs get nerfed, I'm showing up at someone's door with a staple gun and watermelon water cannon.
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Post by mdpn22 on Oct 14, 2016 18:01:56 GMT
all of this argument have to be seen at the light of the population that plays in the server now. just saying!!
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Post by mcbutcher on Oct 15, 2016 10:56:34 GMT
Everyone makes a good point here. very interesting reading all of this. I am not one to know alot about game mechanics etc, but I get excited about change to areas/quests, widgets and builds. Yes Dispell is annoying but it hasn't ruined the game for me, others might feel different. the work that has been done on this server to make is more fun is unbelievable even over the past few years when the player base is quite low. Chreelister and any other devs, it's much appreciated. Especially that you take players opinions into consideration. It's hard to find a balance yes this would be absolutely awesome, I love being in party. if there were more end game farming areas which relied on a party. The maps with waves such as BC are quite hard, I know there are some that can solo there and it's quite easy to get there, I haven't been to Sendauntra in a few years so wouldn't be able to comment on that but if there was something like BC with new monsters that was hard to get to, (not like Sendauntra portal) the maps on the way there have tough enemies, meaning a party is needed. And then there are waves of bosses or something like that and you would need a few diff types of chars there like the old days needing a tank, a damager and a healer etc I know a lot of time and effort is needed so it's not a request at all more a suggestion but obviously others may feel differently ok I kinda went off the topic of dispell there |
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Post by gin on Oct 16, 2016 22:44:18 GMT
Ok, first and foremost i think some interesting issues have been raised in this thread and obviously its not the first time people complain about dispells. However, i think the power of dispells especially towards casters has been vastly overstated. This might be partly due to the reason, that not everyone knows about certain mechanis when it comes to the 3t AI and dispells.
Frankly, i think that every caster class except for druids is pretty much immune to dispells if piloted correctly. If you are dispelled and stripped of all your buffs, while playing one of the just mentioned classes, you either doing it wrong or you simply werent paying attention. I myself have played wizards extensively and of course i have died because of just that. But not a single time those complete buff strips were unavoidable. Caster classes do require a lot of attention and caution, its just the way they work.
That beeing said, i do think that dispell and contant rebuffing on non-caster classes is annoying as hell, especially when you burn throu stacks of scrolls because of that. But then again thats the reason why no one builds a toon that solely relies on buffs. Thats a good thing. Certain toons should have certain weaknesses. If i build a fighter wm or some other mindless damager, i obviously end up with a toon that fails on every Will roll but has great damage. So, i either drop the caster in my first flurry before he can dispell and stun me, or i do get dispelled and die. However, complaining about such an event is simply salty. Stay on top of rebuffing, play in a party that covers that, and if you still die, try a toon with better saves and move on to complaining about 1's rolls, like i do.
I mean common, isnt that the real problem? The other day i ran an established farmer toon into spiders. Of course i did not skip the obligatory stun-pause in vanguard, because my 60 Will toon rolled his 1 and then another 1 to some orc shaman spells. Ridicolous!
Anyhow, for those who get their casters dispelled on a regular basis, please continue reading, it will probably make your 3t life much easier.
So.... most of the 3T veterans already know this, but i still think its worth sharing some of the basics. The above mentioned caster classes have access to a very basic spell which grants them a certain resistance to dispells. The Magic Circle against Alignement is availabe at lvl 3 for bards, pals, wizards and sorcs.
Not only does it grant mind immunity, which in a lot of cases saves mindblank, but it also deviates every single dispell which would normally be aimed directly at you. Opposing casters will still cast dispell variations, but they do so trying to dispell the area of effect, which almost nullifies their dispell power. Yes it will still strip one buff or two on occasion, especially if the dispell originates from a mage smith or similary high arcane casters, but even that is mostly the case for mords, as other dispells are simply too weak and are most of the time absorbed by your mantle anyway. This is one of the very basic tactics to avoid getting naked on the battlefield. By the way, there are similar aura spells with the same effect and there are two soup-like spells on top of that, which in 90% of the cases forces the ai to vehemently try dispelling it while completely ignoring everything else. Yes there is gust of wind which can put a sudden end to this distraction, but it is rather short range and that gives you plenty time to kill your enemy while he is charging.
I think dispell is balanced, even though annoying, it is a neccessary evil if you will.
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Post by tyrolan on Oct 17, 2016 5:28:51 GMT
Personally I like the idea Chreelister mentioned where lower level dispels will strip fewer buffs, but I think the Greater Dispel should still be able to strip you of a lot of your buffs, perhaps with the number of buffs being stripped being based off the number of caster levels.
I do think the benefits to melee toons now are getting way ahead of most of the casters, specifically lvl 38-40 barbs with terrifying rage maxed out. Barb dc's basically make a mockery of caster dc's and they are way more reliable since you can't be interrupted from stunning/dazing your enemies and with the finale boots they last a long time. I honestly think terrifying rage could be toned down a notch without making barbs obsolete again, especially if they keep the melee benefits and spell resistance. If I'm not mistaken Barb's also give a negative to ab/ac to enemies in their aura, that could be kept with a high dc as well, but I think the disabling effects should at least be brought into line with caster disables, if not slightly lesser due to the other benefits they have.
Anyway back to dispels, I don't really have much of a problem with them, even though they are annoying as hell, but that makes you have to play smart, and not go rushing into a situation if there might be a caster around. I like that sense of danger when I see a caster, that I need to apply some tactics to take care of them without dying. A high level caster should inspire fear in characters, that's part of being a caster, you're generally a glass cannon, you kill quick and die quick. If they have no dispels there wouldn't be that much fear left. Evasion takes care of reflex save spells, widget's/items/scrolls can protect you from mind and death spells pretty easily, so basically they're just left with magic damage. And there are items that can reduce that as well.
I know the vast majority of my toons would be a lot happier without dispels (I bet half my vault is shifter variations) but there wouldn't be anything that could hurt some of them. I have a Druid/Monk/Fighter that gets absurd levels of ab/ac, decent dmg (highest of any of my crit immune shifters), good dr, crit immunity and has buffs to make them immune to death/slows, can put an extended regen on for 6/round that lasts 40 rounds, on top of the regen on its gear. What does that char fear: casters. And not just for stripping buffs. For some reason dispels permanently remove ac when you get hit with them until you unshift and then reshift, which makes you vulnerable and can't really be done in combat. And I kind of like it like that, everything should be wary of something.
I personally also don't think shifters need much of a buff, at least not the undead/golem shapes. The non-crit immune shapes might be nice to buff a bit though.
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